Nov 18, 2008
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First Draft, Late Night Post on CFML Language Development BOF
Where to start? It all happened so fast. In the blink of an eye the MAX BOF Session on CFML Language Development came and went. But what a great session.
First off, thanks Jason Delmore (Adobe), Adam Haskell and Matt Woodward (OpenBD), Gert Franz (Railo -who wins the pulling an all nighter to participate award) and Sean Corfield (CFML Advisory committee -graciously agreeing to speak).
And of course, everyone who participated in person and online.
About half the meeting got recorded on Acrobat Connect right here
Here is a recap of the first half from my recollection. I would invite speakers and participants to add in their recollections as well.
For some context, the session followed a Meet the CF Team BOF session. Most people were finishing grabbing pizza and beer from the hallway (the day at MAX starts around 7.30 am). We had a few technical challenges. Then got started.
The agenda was
- let each of the three CFML platforms state their vision of CFML.
- Get feedback from the audience on where they wanted CFML to go.
- Discussion to ensue.
Gert opened up with the concepts that
- the core of CFML should be free,
- the core should run equally well on all three platforms,
- CFML platform vendors can add particularities to their flavor of CFML,
- There should be a way for other vendors to add on extensions to the application.
Railo has begun putting this approach in action by
- being on the CFML Advisory Committee
- adding in Railo specific tags and features (Transfer, cfvideo, enclosures)
- building an extensions manager where 3rd party vendors can publish language extensions and even applications that can be added to the Railo CFML.
Adam seemed to be generally on the same page with
- the importance of having CFML be open source and
- allowing the community to add and extend language -both to the core and OpenBD specific implementation.
Jason talked about CFML’s long and rich history. That the mantle of rapid application development was taken from CF and that he is dead-set on getting that back. He said that Adobe is not so much focused on adding new tags or features but making it easier and faster to utilize the features that already exist in CF.
Jason did a quick poll in the room of how many people use more than 50% of tags in CF. No -one raised their hand. General consensus seemed to be that people use maybe 10 - 20% of the tags in CF.
This was a good seque to feature requests. One request that was discussed was improving CF Chart and Flash Forms. Participants in the audience chimed in saying that CF Chart wasn’t doing the job so they looked at an extension that Ray Camden had on his blog. But then this still wasn’t enough so with about a week’s worth of work he was able to solve it using Flex.
Jason made the point that Flex 1.5 was thrown into CF previously since the Flex server was running $40,000 or so. But now with Flex SDK being free and Flex builder being relatively cheap there was no need for CF to have this. Just use Flex. Others online added that CF Chart can be expanded by accessing the underlying Java. So one idea was to do a better job of documenting/exposing the underlying Java so that developers can extend Adobe CF in that way. (Though why couldn’t CF simply update the Flex within CF? )
Jason reinterated the value of customer feedback and was listening here to what would help the community be more productive.
This brought up the topic of what is core and who gets to decide what features are in -which brought Sean up from the audience. Thankfully.
Sean explained that
- the committee met and voted on what was core and what was not core.
- All members of the committee have agreed that whatever is core will run across all member platforms.
- They had hoped to have more visibility on what they were doing but simply have not had the time yet.
The audience started bringing up directions that CFML should go, then, from a core perspective.
One train of discussion was on making CFML more like Java - a tightly typed language and have more parallels and access to Java.
Both Sean and Jason responded that
- there are a tremendous number of advantages in CFML not being tightly typed and
- that Java is not the ultimate model for OO development -specifically pointing to Small Talk’s place in the evolution of OO and not having interface like Java (see Patterns in Design).
There was the sense from both Jason and Sean that CFML has its own approach and philosophy, that maybe that got lost along the way/muddled a bit, but that it seems to be well in the sites now!
CFML Ain’t Nobody’s “Lite”!
Sean shared his experiences on development by commmittee pointing to his experience on the C++ committee then what Java committee with some of those features. There ultimately has to be a decision making body that says what is and what is not the core language.
Some features will be implemented differently e.g. Adobe has PDF IP that the others don’t. But there are also areas where OpenBD community and Railo with JBoss have (and are interested in pursuing deeper) e.g. expanding with Java.
Open BD brought up how cool would it be for OpenBD to come up with extensions that reduce the value of Blue Dragon’s CF on .NET engine.
There was then a question on how does each platform vendor get feedback from the community. Jason mentioned the bug tracker and beta testing Adobe does before a release. OpenBD and Railo both have their communities.
However, as expressed by Sean, the hope is that the CFML Advisory committee have a website where CFML users across platforms can give feedback and lobby for features in the core. However, Sean made the important distinction between development of the core vs point specific solutions that people want solved (this seems where extensions to the language could be useful).
From here, I think the Connect Recording picks it up.
Final impressions:
- CFML has a passionate user base
- The vendors and Advisory Committee are driven by feedback
- CFML has reached a level of maturity where point solutions can be developed by third parties and
- The larger resource pools (of either Adobe or an open source community platform’s) can be focused on advancing the core in key underlining areas
- That productivity is still the key driver behind CFML’s value - and that there are now three enterprises pushing to regain the mantle of the utlimate in rapid application development.
Stay tuned -they say big news at the keynote tomorrow -it’ll be all Ben Forta!






I still feel CF is the lead in RAD, I work in a pure Java shop where they have attempted JSF, and all kinds of different ways that claim to make Java faster, and it simply doesn’t compete with the work I am doing in CF for my company. I have released 7 full prod ready applications for sales this past year, the Java team is still working on features that were supposed to be released in 07.
CFML is awesome at productivity, with that, if you make the answer to a better chart simply “Use the underlying Java to make better charts” then you are simply saying, use a slower less productive route to make charts, to which IT managers, and other decision makers will say, Well then why don’t we just use Java to start with.
In my experience, which is a constant fight with the established IT of Java developers, is that you have to showcase productivity gains everywhere… in everything they do, right now, CFML has a better way… even CFCHART, it’s faster and produces 80% of the charts they can do in about 1/8th the time, it’s that last 20% that holds us back…
CFChart is a BIG reason why many people Choose CFML, if you look at the features that get decisoin makers excited, it’s the easy deployment of Charts, and PDFs, those are the features that WOW people and get money to buy and support CFML. IF you let those features slide, or expect people to just extend Java to make those charts that are needed… then the decision makers get put in a cycle of doubt and then the decision to stick with the status qou 99/100 times happens. That is what we need to attack. To take the strongest selling points of CFML and allow them to dwindle is dumb, and will create a vacuum of “Well it’s good, but it’s not great at these things”… No one wants to buy a server, only to have to buy extenstion from third parties in order to do the job 100% professionally.
We NEED a more complete robust phenomenal CFCHART.
@David, the point made in the session was that whilst CF might get you 80% there with charts, it’s *easy* to go further by using the underlying Java APIs (Peter Farrell has blogged about this - and discussed it on his podcast) and if you need to go further, Flex makes it *easy* to do really sophisticated UIs.
CF cannot (and should not) be a 100% solution to everything. But it’s a very rapid way to get 80% there and that’s enough to give CF developers the edge because you can’t be beat on productivity.
Jason’s reference to losing the RAD crown was a nod to Ruby on Rails, BTW. some Java developers have moved to RoR or Groovy / Grails in the search for more rapid application development. Gert hopes Railo can tap that desire via their association with JBoss and if that helps swing Java developers to CFML, we all win.
I believe ColdFusion is more productive than anything else, but I don’t think that me believing that, or ColdFusion users believing that, is enough. I want everyone else to know it. I want independent research companies to recognize it, I want publications to write articles about it, and I want our community to keep growing because of this. I believe that there are areas that we can work on to improve the ColdFusion Development Platform. Bolt, will enable rapid development of production ready applications, Centaur will have a direct Hibernate integration enabling cross-database development with significantly less code than direct SQL operations. These are major leaps in productivity and we have more planned. I believe that Bolt and Centaur combined will cause a paradigm shift in how we think of rapid application development. And ColdFusion will not only be the fastest way to develop high quality applications, but will be recognized by the software industry as the clear leader in rapid application development.
That’s the hope anyway.
Mark and everyone else that participated in the discussion. Great talk!
Thanks!
Jason
Thanks for this update! I missed this in all the MAX news coming out but I think it’s great the CFML communities are talking! I think if the group can pull of coming up with a common core this will be great for everyone involved and will really open the door for CFML. We would then be able to offer all the pundits a choice - want open-source/free - we got it! Want enterprise level support in a commercial package - we got that too!
[...] Mark Phillips has a good blog post covering what was discussed as well as a link to a Connect recording of some of the event that is worth a listen as well! [...]
I’ve added the connect recording to http://www.carehart.org/ugtv/
@Henry - thanks.